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Replaygain support?

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Post time 2015-5-5 04:37:06 |Show all posts |
I want to replace my sandisk clip+ player after a trip through the washing machine has reduced its battery life.

I would like to buy one of the FiiO players, X1, or X3ii, but replaygain is pretty much a necessity IMO.

Ideally, when replaygain is turned on, it should include options for gain to apply to songs without gain tags.  (foobar2000 has a good implementation on PC)  this way you can apply a default -8dB to all untagged tracks, which   
will bring your average over-compressed pop song to approximately the reference level.  A post-gain to apply to replaygain (as is done on some other players) is the wrong way to do it, as it can cause clipping on RG tagged tracks which are very dynamic.  It could be put in as an option for people who think the RG'd level is too quiet, but it definitely shouldn't be the only way.
As an example of why this way is bad..  If you set your post gain to +8, which will make your tagged tracks play back at a level similar to average over-compressed CD, and you have a track which RG tags at 3dB (more dynamic
than most), the peaks will likely be 5dB too high, and will clip badly.

The clip+ has decent replaygain support, but it's done the wrong way, so any non RG tracks play at full volume, which is annoying if I forget to tag an album.  It's still better than nothing, but a proper implementation would put this on the top of my list.

If any of the devs are reading this: I would suggest just implimenting it as a volume scaling on the PCM data, and not as a volume control hack.  People who worry about loss of dynamic range, or rounding errors linear volume     
adjustment are insane. (it'll still be well below the noise floor)  The digipots won't likely give a very linear scaling anyway, so you would need a LUT to approximate the correct gain level. (messy)


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Post time 2015-5-9 03:08:44 |Show all posts |
In dBpoweramp, you set the bit depth to 32 bit float then apply the gain, than dither the bit depth back to 16 (or 24). This prevents the clipping.
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Post time 2015-5-13 01:59:53 |Show all posts |
That makes no sense.  Assuming you're reducing levels you will not get clipping.  Changing bit depths is kind of pointless.

If you are increasing the volume of a dynamic song that has peaks near 0dBFS, you will get clipping, it's unavoidable.  You can't be louder than 0dBFS.

All that's kind of irrelevant anyway though, as replaygain is a totally different thing.  It doesn't actually require you to modify the files, it just adds a tag so they will play at a reference level.  Your flac files stay bit-perfect, and it's much faster than re-encoding all your music.

The notes that I made about clipping were to explain the proper way to implement replaygain, which is to bring everything down to a reference level (Typically drops around 8dB with most recent masters).  This means you need to turn your volume control a fair bit higher to get the same listening level, and unfortunately means that anything without replaygain tags will play really loud in comparison.

A lot of implemenations try and compensate for this by applying a default gain to replaygained files, which brings them up to a typical level.  This is the wrong way of doing it, as it will cause clipping on most replaygained files which have been attenuated less than this gain value.

The correct implementation is to leave the replaygained files at the quieter levels, and apply attenuation to any files without replaygain tags (only when replaygain is turned on, of course).

This way you can turn your volume up further to give you your normal listening level with replaygained files, and when the occasional non replaygain file comes along, it will apply your 8dB of attenuation (or whatever you have it set to), which will at least get it in the ballpark and not blow out your eardrums.

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Post time 2015-5-19 16:09:08 |Show all posts |
Replaygain is discussed much in forums. Many customers like it.  I think we will consider to make it.
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Post time 2015-5-20 01:50:15 |Show all posts |
Excellent!
That is good to hear.

Make sure to give the option to apply a fixed attenuation to untagged songs.  That makes it far more useful.
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Post time 2015-6-6 00:02:11 |Show all posts |
+1 for ReplayGain support, especially for Ogg and FLAC files.
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Post time 2015-6-12 08:52:28 |Show all posts |
+1 for ReplayGain. To be honest I was a little bit shocked when I found out my new X1 didn't support this tag. I find this option essential when listening to playlists from various albums.
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Post time 2015-7-24 14:21:39 |Show all posts |
+1 for Replay Gain. I just bought and am enjoying the SQ of the X5ii. I extensively use m3u playlists that spans different albums. Replay Gain is a must for a DAP targeted at audiophiles!

BTW, I went for the X5ii rather than the DX90 primarily because of X5ii has better support for m3u playlists. If X5ii gets replaygain support, it will totally pawn the DX90 in terms of software features.
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Post time 2015-8-1 06:55:31 |Show all posts |
Another vote for Replaygain. Absolutely essential stuff.
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Post time 2015-8-1 13:47:48 |Show all posts |
Yet another vote for Replay Gain, and crossfade!
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Post time 2015-8-2 22:51:31 |Show all posts |
A vote against replay gain. I think it is a frivolous lazy software that does little good. There are far more important things that need working on.
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Post time 2015-8-8 01:09:59 |Show all posts |
warchild replied at 2015-8-2 22:51
A vote against replay gain. I think it is a frivolous lazy software that does little good. There are ...

You have no idea what you're talking about.  While I agree that things like the 5800 song limit are more important, replaygain is very useful, and quite easy to implement.

I am getting a little tired of getting my eardrums blown out every time I'm listening on shuffle, and adjust my volume to an older album  recorded at a reasonable level, and then something recent plays 10dB louder.  My cheap little sandisk player from 5 years ago has it.  There's no reason a premium device like this shouldn't have it.
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Post time 2015-8-9 08:07:38 |Show all posts |
nwimpney replied at 2015-8-8 01:09
You have no idea what you're talking about.  While I agree that things like the 5800 song limit ar ...

Riiight!?!?!

A Rockboxed Sansa (which is about 60 dollars cheaper) has way more features than a FiiO X1.

COME. ON.
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Post time 2015-8-9 09:51:56 |Show all posts |
nwimpney replied at 2015-8-8 01:09
You have no idea what you're talking about.  While I agree that things like the 5800 song limit ar ...

Thanks for being insulting while disregarding someone else's opinion. I don't discuss things with the close minded
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Post time 2015-8-10 03:37:39 |Show all posts |
warchild replied at 2015-8-9 09:51
Thanks for being insulting while disregarding someone else's opinion. I don't discuss things with  ...

Not gonna lie, being against a feature that would really help people is kind of silly.

It's one thing to say it's a lower priority than one feature, but it's another to flat out go against it for some weird reason.

I understand that you want the 5800 song limit to be lifted before the replay gain is added, but I don't understand why you wouldn't want it to be implemented after as well, I get tired of being ear raped every time I tuned into 'Mighty Switch Force, and replaygain would make all of the songs the exact same volume, so, no more ear rape!
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Post time 2015-8-10 10:49:47 |Show all posts |
RebeccaSugar replied at 2015-8-10 03:37
Not gonna lie, being against a feature that would really help people is kind of silly.

It's one t ...

I'm not against it, but I find it a very lazy thing to use. I was around when it was first introduced and was intrigued and then incredibly bored by replaygain. (If you listen to lossless you can create a batch file to normalize your files.)
The 5800 song database isn't very high on my list of priorities either. I use externally created playlists primarily.
My major concerns are SQ, HD support, more file type support, the ability to have flac, dsf, m4a all in the same playlist without the fiio hiccupping, getting overtly trebly and crackly etc. That is a much more furious type of ear rape to me.
Fiio needs some software to sync the device. That would be remarkably useful. FreeBSD has a hard time holding onto the Fiio mount and is very slow to sync, yet the same SD card in an adapter can be mounted for days.
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Post time 2015-8-10 12:46:41 |Show all posts |
warchild replied at 2015-8-10 10:49
I'm not against it, but I find it a very lazy thing to use. I was around when it was first introdu ...

You literally said you were against it, but that doesn't matter, it's not about that, this is about the priorities the tech support has, that aren't exactly what we want, and yes, it's lazy in a convenient way, not everyone is going to manually create a batch file, especially when not every song you have is lossless.

Anyway, I'm unsure what you mean by "HD Support", do you mean those 96/24 songs or am I getting this wrong? Also, I have m4a's, flac's mp3 all bunched up in a playlist and my FiiO does indeed hiccup, so you got that going, it gives me a white screen, but it's never given me crackle and/or a treble overflow, either way, the demand to lift the song limit is much more greater than what you want, for that matter, what I want as well, so for now, it's basically what the bigger number wants, then they'll work on the smaller details.

If they ever DO add software in the inevitable future, I sure hope it doesn't become mandatory, so everyone is able to choose how they're able to sync the player individually.

We'll find out what they'll add during the next firmware update, the more features, the merrier, just-- keep the player stable, guys.
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Post time 2015-8-18 03:42:21 |Show all posts |
The main advantage of replaygain over normalizing and encoding is that it has zero quality reduction (of the file)
Yes, you can work around that by having a normalized copy of all of your music on your player, and keep the original flacs for archival purposes, but that's an awful waste of time and disk space when it's something which is so simple to implement.

Also, if you own any music only in a lossy format replaygain avoids the extra damage of transcoding.

I don't hear anything wrong with the sound quality, don't care about "HD", don't need any file formats besides flac, ogg, and mp3, generally listen to my music as albums, or on shuffle, and _hate_ sync software.

I'm not going to say any of those features you want are frivolous and lazy, because they matter to some people, but from my perspective fixing the 5800 song limit is #1, replay gain is #2, and some way to avoid 30 seconds of spinning the scroll wheel  (either scroll by first letter, or a search) is #3
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Post time 2015-10-21 03:16:10 |Show all posts |
Edited by alphire at 2015-10-21 12:43

I would also vouch in for ReplayGain support, especially for X3 2nd generation, which I'm getting tomorrow.
Not only normalization on sample level reduce quality (due to averaging) but also increase file size of losslessly encoded files. Not to mention other side effects of normalization, like elevated dither floor, etc.

This would also pretty much solve issue with insufficient volume for high-impedance/low sensitivity headphones.

To illustrate the advantages of ReplayGain support, let me present you with an example:

I have purchased this wonderful album by Ola Gjeilo called Northern Lights (from 2L.no).
The tracks are not normalized, even though they're disconnected from each other (no need for gapless playback). Highest absolute album peak is 0.489 (-8.05dB), so in another words, I'll be getting 8dB less from headphone out than reference.
Since I am using 600 Ohm and 88dB/mW headphones, they need a lot of voltage swing to become alive. X3 II is supposed to push them to 100.32dB peak, but with albums that are not reference volume, I'm effectively losing some of this extra volume/voltage headroom (in case with Northern Lights, I'm left with about 92dB peak)
What I need of X3 II is just to increase volume of all tracks in an album by 8.05dB, to reach nominal reference volume level. No multiband compression, no limiting, just apply gain in pre-DAC stage in 32bit domain, then dither using equal TPDF and send 32bit single-precision stream to DAC.

When I tried to normalize all tracks in that album, overall size went up from 550MB to 900MB
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Post time 2015-10-22 03:33:49 |Show all posts |
I know a lot about converting audio formats digitally, and I have no idea what you are saying. The best I can make out is that you made a 24 bit file 32 bit and that's why the size increased.
16 bit depth holds more volume difference than human ears care for. 24 and 32 are only useful for mixing.
I always assume this is not common knowledge because it took me about six months of searching to find it out.
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